Peter Calandra and Wade Atkinson, Publicis Seattle

Hello, I’m Wade Atkinson, associate print producer at Publicis Seattle.

Hi, I’m Peter Calandra, print producer at Publicis Seattle.

When you're looking to hire talent, do you interact with the other agencies in other cities or do you do it completely in-house here?

It depends on the project… there are certain projects that we've collaborated on with Publicis Dallas and Publicis New York, and then the other agencies in the group we really don’t interact with a great deal. Usually... it's all Publicis Seattle. But sometimes for projects that are larger in scope or new business pitches that are… just outside the Seattle area, we will sometimes collaborate with other places.

And how do you find talent? Are you looking for people outside of this area when you typically look to hire a photographer or illustrator?

Usually.

Yeah.

Unless it's something terribly simplistic. There are several photographers locally that can do jobs that aren’t terribly complex, and tabletop-type studio shots. There's always something you can get done quickly in town, locally. There are some good photographers in town that are well known, and we’ve worked with a few of them. I've worked with them at other agencies, since I've only been here for a short while. Interestingly enough, I’m finding that in the Northwest there is a high percentage of really top-notch photographers in Oregon, and that’s primarily because of the retailers that revolve around Portland: Nike, Adidas, Columbia Sportswear. And a lot of the photographers in that area cater to Wieden + Kennedy and all the shops that deal with those particular retailers. So, there seems to be a proliferation of five-star quality photography in Oregon.

When you're shooting, do you typically shoot locally even if you're bringing somebody in from out of town or are you going on location more often?

It really depends on the situation and the circumstances, who is available, who’s not available, who can go to this particular location with ease, what type of a setting or an environment are we looking for, where does that have a more natural proliferation, or where will you find the most abundance of that particular location type if we are scouting for it. Is it something peculiar to this climate or do we have to go to a different part of the country for it, or wherever. I think those are the dictates that say yes, we're going to the native city of a photographer versus we're going to fly a photographer to a location.

So, you don’t find that the budget has much in the way for you [in terms of] trying to find the right person?

It really depends on the budget. Some jobs have miniscule budgets and others have very generous budgets. Sometimes, there are severe budget restraints that will cause you to have a limited... to do a shoot on a shoestring, so to speak. We've had a lot of success recently here using photographers in Oregon. But that’s not to say that we've also used photographers in L.A. and San Francisco and New York to a large degree, as far as I understand. I just recently used a New York photographer, back in February.

Is there a certain style of photographer that you tend to need for the accounts that your agency is working on?

Yeah, definitely… Our principal client is T-Mobile and a lot of their stuff is lifestyle photography and also…

…sports-sponsored.

Yes, yes, sports. There’s sports sponsorships with the NBA that tie in a lot. So, definitely lifestyle and sports photography we have a lot of.

And also for the technical aspect of the phone or the machinery or the handset itself, then you're dealing with photographers that are specialized in shooting steel and plastic, who really understand lighting minutia for real small detailed items, you know. People that can shoot… understand lighting for cars, for example, or how to light a piece of plastic properly, not necessarily someone that is just a lifestyle photographer. For inside shots on a campaign [we] might utilize a photographer for a lifestyle shot, but then maybe you need the product shot by a different photographer.

And I saw also there was some celebrity work on your site. If you're looking for a celebrity photographer, does it matter to you how much celebrity work they’ve done or are you looking more for a portrait photographer and it happens that this time you want them to shoot a celebrity?

I actually haven’t been involved in any celebrity shoots. I don’t know if I have a good feel on that. I imagine that having past celebrity experience is important.

I also think it comes down to the art direction of the moment. What is being entertained conceptually by the creative team. Is there a campaign that they're needing this particular photographer for? How dry is it? How friendly is it? What type of a look are they shooting for? Do they want someone that could shoot a celebrity with a more austere tone or they do want someone that can shoot a celebrity and bring more joy and friendliness into the… it really depends on how edgy of a feel… do they want something nerdy or do they want something glamorous and slick? It depends on what the aspirations are of the creative director and art director. That may influence because there's a big array of celebrity photographers. So, it may very well influence the decision on who is selected.

Do you have a sense of how many different photographers you end up looking at in order to hone it down for a selection?

With the Web there are dozens of photographers that will be considered before we even ask for a book.

And they won't even know that you're thinking about them?

Correct. We usually start looking… just to get an idea of where to start, and then start Googling. There is also word of mouth, reading, Communication Arts provides new insight to who’s done what recently, what agencies have done campaigns, etc. That’s the way to see who’s shooting what. And you can then go to their sites and see what other material they have produced.

Do you look at blogs for the industry or follow newsletters online or in print?

I personally don’t. But I’m sure that’s a very good way of getting that accomplished, of becoming privy to who’s doing what. I guess there are certain generations that are more inclined to utilize that.

And what about print pieces that are sent to you? Do you keep them? Do you sort them? Do you organize them?

Yeah.

Yeah. We have a binder, you know, kind of broken into different styles of photography with leave-behinds from all sorts of different photographers. We also have… pretty regularly, we have photography reps come in and show series of books. It’s kind of a nice way to meet the reps and sometimes the individual photographers and see new work that way.

Do people ever get jobs out of doing that?

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, I think that’s one of the more prevalent ways that people do get jobs here...

If a book is called in, there is good likelihood you'll be hired. If you're not hired, you know you're in the running.

And also that personal connection... people come in and they’ve met you. That helps them as well.

Certainly.

Yeah, definitely.

You put a name to the face. You can pretty much see how easy a rep is if you meet the rep. You know, how good the dialogue is, how accommodating they are. Some people are really pleasant, easy to do business with and they are flexible and understanding, and others are rather cut and dry and don’t want to bend at all especially when it comes down to dollars.

Have you seen any difference in the way pricing is being handled, with the economy the way it is?

Yeah, photographers are being much more flexible nowadays because obviously they want to be able to make a living. And I think people are witnessing budgets being halved and sliced and diced, and sometimes there isn’t a lot of money allocated for photography. So, I've experienced a lot of photographers being open to looking at their pricing and perhaps, if not coming down on the price, extending the usage rights to encompass more with the same dollar price point.

And what about illustration? Have you seen a price difference in the use of illustration?

I really can't speak for that because I haven’t purchased a lot of illustration. I’ve purchased storyboard and I know that the illustrators that do that are usually paid a fee per day, and it's pretty nominal. So, I really can't comment.

Yeah, we don’t have a great use of illustration here.

And what about emails that are sent to you as promotional pieces? Are those things that you look at and open?

Absolutely... pieces that portray color and design aesthetics... promotes the person, the photographer or illustrator. It basically is an extension of who they are and how they're presenting themselves on ink on paper. Much the same way, you would be very particular about how you would design your letterhead or business card. When a photographer or illustrator sends out a promo piece, it's actually them imparting their character into that printed piece.

Do you think that there's any type of key wording that they should use in their subject line that would compel you more to want to look or not look? Anything that they should be aware of when you're…

Key wording is really important especially when it comes down to action, celebrity, food…

So, describing what they do.

Yeah.

Yeah, that’s nice.

For travel, landscape…

Yeah, I think that basically, any email that I get, I read. And so the only thing that’s a big turn off or something to avoid is, you know, sending a series of pieces in a short of period of time.

So, too often.

Yeah, too often is a turn off for sure. It doesn’t happen very frequently, but occasionally a rep or photographer will send, like, “Oh, check this out!” and “Check this out” and “Check this out,” all in separate emails. You know, like I am tired of checking this out.

I’ve checked it! And what about promos that you receive in the mail, is there ever too much of that?

No. Because you never know when something can be referenced again. I tend to not want to throw stuff out especially if it's well printed and really nicely produced. I might find the need to hold onto it just for reference.

And you have a strong print background. So, is your tendency perhaps to also appreciate well-printed pieces…

Absolutely.

…maybe more than other people?

Absolutely. And I think it’s to a photographer’s advantage… it would actually behoove them to try and save their dollars to produce a really well printed promo piece rather than doing several sort of inferior quality ones. Save your money and go for the piece where you could afford the extra coating, whether it’s premium paper on a heavier weight and maybe you want to get the color plate embossed so that it really makes a relief off of the page. I mean, spending extra money for the finishing touches on your promo because it's going to make you look like a premium photographer.

And do multiple images help you to get more of a sense about them or if they send you one image regularly? What would have more impact for you?

I think a mailing that has… first of all 8.5x11 is terribly economic. That’s a very, very good format. Portrait or landscape. There's not a lot of waste when you do an 8.5x11 when you're buying a job. So, that’s a very economic ratio to do your promo pieces to, and you could do plates. Plates are great because if you have plates printed 5, 6, 7, 8, a dozen different designs or different photos... full-bleed or perhaps a little white border, which is always tidy, you can always mix and match them according to who you're sending them to. If you're sending them to an agency that you know is really geared toward food product, you might want to send them some plates that are more of a warm tone and that will complement skin tones and food. If you're dealing with an agency or design firm that's catering to car manufacturers, you might want to send them photography that’s more of a cool nature that has more slick imagery on it. You can actually mix and match your plates rather than having them finish bound. Instead of doing a book. I think it's always smarter for a photographer to do individual plates printed one-side only. You can get a cast-coated sheet that’s just printed on one side and like a chrome coat.

What about the personal books that sometimes people are making where they manufacture an entire portfolio in a book format. Do you think that has any effect on an art director, to receive that? Because it can be fairly expensive.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Again, it really depends on the output device and how good that digital printing is. Sometimes it's almost worth the money to spend for a premium offset litho job where you know that you're going to get an actual better reproduction than you are off of a digital printer. It really depends on the output device and…

…but as far as the effectiveness of an entire book of your work, does that have impact when you're receiving them or have you ever gotten that sort of thing where somebody sends you an entire book?

Yeah, yeah, we definitely do. I think that it's most effective when it's someone that you’ve already met with and have already seen their book... and then they send that to you. It's kind of a nice reminder, it's somebody you’ve already hit off with. I recently received one out-of-the-blue and, you know, I looked at it like oh, this is interesting. But I don’t already have a connection with this person so now it's kind of like the thing I have to decide whether I’m going to keep or throw out. Usually, I'll cut a page or a representative page or two out of it and save that, and toss the rest out.

And what about chotskies–little promos that have people’s names on it? Has that ever been effective for you to then look at the work of the artist that sent it?

Personally, I have a big disdain for little keychain logo items and stuff… you know, a Rubik’s Cube with a photo cut up 12 ways on it really wouldn’t do the trick for me. I would much rather see someone spend their money on a nicely produced piece that’s just a regular printed sample because I think when you're talking, especially regarding photography and illustration, you really want to convey how well your piece reproduces, because that’s what they're buying it for. Ultimately, it's going to be reproduced in some way, shape, or form. So, don’t spend your money on chotskies. Spend it on good reproduction.

And then once you’ve looked at that, you’ve received a really nice printed piece, you go to the website. When you're looking at an artist’s website, is there anything in particular that you think people could do better or that you like or don’t like?

One thing that’s nice about a site is when you're looking at a thumbnail, you bring up the image. I think just the functionality of clicking on the right side of the image to move to the next one, and left side to move to the previous one. Just having that makes it a lot easier to navigate. You don’t notice it when it's there, but you notice when it's not there.

The other thing that’s really crucial and can be really significant in making you want to stay on that website is… somehow let the photos be in the background, but have a layer on top of that occupying perhaps half the page where you're getting thumbnails of all of the photos. And if you hover over a thumbnail, then you can double-click on it and it will load on the page. This way you don’t have to actually go through each individual page turn, and click to everything. You can actually look at a sheet of thumbnails and go right to the ones you want to see, rather than going through an entire catalog which can take considerably more time, especially if the pages are taking a long time to load.

Have you ever wanted to look at somebody’s site but something happened that annoyed you so that you didn’t end up even spending time on the site?

Absolutely.

And what would cause that?

I would say the ease of navigation.

Yeah.

If it didn’t work easily then you just get off.

It should be very intuitive. People that resort to a lot of hidden elements and trickery for hovering over this… and if you don’t know to do something and if there's a little spot on the page, it's a hot spot but it's not identified, how on earth are we supposed to know that it’s there? Yeah, maybe it’s austere and pristine, but no one is going to know about it. I mean, if they're too slick and you can't really figure them out, sometimes it's a disservice even though they look cool.

Right. So, they have good photography but they actually could end up losing out on even being considered for the job because you couldn’t get through their website.

Yeah, that’s true, yeah.

Certainly.

So, what would somebody do if they're trying to get your attention? What are effective ways for them to market to you?

Well, certainly approaching us. Meeting in person is, maybe not the most economical way to do it, but it always has a good effect. Other than that... I don’t know, maybe it's just me, but I feel like a personal touch is really nice. A handwritten note, that sort of thing, and staying in contact but not doing it too frequently.

And then how much influence do the different art directors have over the decision-making versus what you have discovered in negotiating with them? How does that all play and who gets to choose what the end result is?

How are jobs awarded?

Yeah.

Essentially, two factors come into play most of the time: price and who the art director really wants to use. Sometimes it's dictated by the client not being able to afford who they want, or a lot of times the person they do want to use will be flexible and negotiate so that they can get the job even though they're not going to be compensated to the degree they like. Ultimately, as much as the print producer wants to be able to make that decision on who the job is awarded to, it usually falls into the realm of the creative director and/or the client making that decision based on them being provided a selection of photographers and a selection of bids for a project.

Do you show the client the website or the physical portfolio?

Both.

So, they actually see...

Usually both.

Okay.

If they don’t see the physical portfolio, they'll have a lightbox made from that particular photographer’s rep. At least I will request it so that we’ll get some pretty good high resolution images that can be shared with the client and perhaps printed out here to take to a meeting so that all the photographers are represented in a similar vein... so that it's almost like apples to apples. And usually we’ll bid a job three ways with three different photographers for economy’s sake, and to make sure we're getting a good value for the client rather than just getting one quote. There are times that we’ll only get one quote because we need a particular photographer to do the job and we’ll explain our concerns about pricing and/or budget and try to have that dealt with upfront rather than soliciting three different bids from three parties.

Do you find there's a wide variety of how people bid or, when you're picking like-artists, do you find that generally they're within each other?

Once again, it…

…if somebody prices it really low, does that give them an advantage or does that give them a disadvantage because then you feel like they don’t understand the project?

You know, it can be priced alarmingly low... and then you look at it and say well, they've clearly not thought of all the details. It can be a red flag.

And that’s disconcerting. We’ve had that happen several times.

And when we triple bid something, we don’t do it necessarily to get to the lowest bid but it's to make the best choice.

And that’s also to see who’s thinking the most about the job. There are a lot of details that are revealed in a printing quote. A proposal can reveal a lot of different line items to the producer that he or she may not have been aware of upfront, and to see who’s thinking along those lines insofar as the photographer’s rep and/or photographer’s producer who’s compiling that quotation for you at the agency. It really can be an eye-opening experience, and then you feel as though you're being taken care of properly because the person that’s providing you the estimate really understands the concept of what's involved in producing that particular shoot.

And the ones who don’t get the project once it's awarded, do they find out? Do you tell them who got the project?

Absolutely. A lot of people have different sentiments about it. I actually believe that people are going to find out who did it anyway. It usually comes down to the client’s decision and/or the creative director’s decision. The question is really not “Are you a good photographer?” or “Is there something wrong with your pricing or your photography?” You wouldn’t have been asked to provide a bid for the job…

Right, because of all those people you were looking at, they were a finalist.

Yeah, right. We could have gotten a bid from any person just for a comparative bid. I mean, there are thousands of photographers out there. You aren’t selected for aesthetic reason or an aesthetic/budgetary reason. But it's always a legitimate reason one way or another. It's not because your work isn’t acceptable. So, I have no qualms about letting people be aware of who received the job and usually tell them it was just a decision that was based on the creativity for the shoot, the creative, and how the client wants to see it done in tandem with the creative director.

Do you find that you work a lot with the same photographers or that you're constantly finding new photographers that you haven’t worked with?

Both.

Yes, definitely a mix.

Both. It's nice to develop an ongoing relationship with a photographer. But the reality is, in this business, we need to shake it up visually because a photographer might be capable of doing several different types of looks but they have this particular range, like a singer, and you can only do so much within the range of one particular photographer. You'll always need different voices. And photographers are all different that way.

Okay. Well, thank you very much for your time. Appreciate it.

Yeah, thanks for speaking with us.