Kim Witczak, Barrie D'Rozario Murphy

I’d like to know a little bit about you and your background as a buyer.

Where I got my start was at Fallon, for about 10 years. I started at Fallon as an account person and then moved over into art buying.

So, you had a good sense about what the clients were looking for?

Yeah. It was a really interesting way to come into art buying, having been an account supervisor, specifically on BMW. So I knew exactly what the clients were looking for when they were approving photographers and looking at productions, etc. I also thought it was a good background to have because I was able to then help sell in once we had a photographer or illustrator or even production budgets and stuff like that... I was able to sell in to the client. So, it was a good background. Plus, I had art school background.

Did you find that the job involved producing at that time, or was that a new thing where the buyers were becoming producers also?

You know, at Fallon we were always producers. I think they always viewed the art buyers as producers, no different than a broadcast producer was to television. We are in the same role.

And are you involved at all in broadcast production?

I will work with broadcast producers… more and more they’re wanting to get digital or photos of a shoot. Or there might be some interactive elements and a lot of times interactive elements fall under art buying.

Could you tell me the history of the agency here?

Yeah. Barrie D'Rozario Murphy was started by Bob Barrie and Stuart D’Rozario, both creatives that I worked with at Fallon on United. And the third partner, David Murphy, was president over at Saatchi in L.A. So they started it in November 2006. And that’s been great because they… come with a wide, varied background.

History.

Yeah.

So you were involved when they were doing United even before, right?

I touched United at Fallon, but I was not the main art buyer… but I did know the process.

And it’s been so branded by the use of illustration, do you know how that came about?

Well, you know, they started doing illustration as a way to break through the airline clutter and they’ve been doing it for awhile, And now it’s just become the history… people are looking at United, and I also believe that United’s helped the while illustration industry.

Yeah.

And to see that, wow, a major advertiser’s using illustration and how it can really cut through. If we were in here and we had all our competitive ads up for all the United, for all the airlines, you would see that the United work really stands apart because of the use of illustration.

Right. And if you had to ask anybody, “Name what a campaign looks like from an airline,” you know immediately…

Right.

…what United’s looks like, but can you remember what any of the others look like?

No, I just feel like it’s just photography. And I don’t even know what it looks like.

Right. Right. And is there a word you would use to describe the kind of illustration that the account’s been attracted to?

I would say very fantasy, storybook, high-end. It’s not… although we’ve had some whimsical, it’s more storybook illustrations.

When you receive promos from illustrators, are there certain ones that you receive, and you go, “Oh, this is a United-type illustrator?”

Yeah. You know, it’s funny. I’ve always loved illustration. I think illustration is kind of like curating an art show, an art museum, or gallery. But, I think what happens with us because we have United, every illustrator sends me their illustrations.

So, you see everything that’s out there.

Yeah. Because they all think, “Oh, illustration. I’m going to be able to work with it.” And some of it is like line drawings, which would not work. But I still love to look at illustration and keep it in mind for other projects. But, I would say a lot of people do contact or send me promos because of the fact of United.

Right. And if you needed an illustration tomorrow for the United campaign, you were going to go search, what would your process be? Are there certain keywords that you look up? How do you even search illustration?

I do several different things. Like I have different websites I’ll go on or rep groups that I know that have illustrations or illustrators that I like. One thing we’ve been trying to do is find things that have not been out there, so we’ve worked with a lot of international artists. I will initially start with Web searches, rep groups. But I also go through annuals… Archive, CA, and things like that just to see if there’s anything that’s new and fresh. Children’s books... for United, I’ll go look at children’s books. There’s a great website called Storyopolis.com and I’ll go look on there, and they’ll have a lot of different storybook illustrators.

And when they do the commercials with the illustrators, were those illustrators that you found in print first or are those a totally different breed of illustration?

Those are all completely separate, although some of our illustrators do animation, but for the most part, those were animators.

Okay. And when you look at the website of an illustrator, is there a certain way that the information should be divided that would make it easier for you when you’re looking for something in particular?

You know, it’s interesting. I could answer that in two different ways. If I’m just looking purely for an artist that I think has the right style, I just want to see their work and as much of it and be able to click through it pretty fast, because I know what I’m looking for. It seems like more and more today we’re going with stock illustrations, so then I have to be a little bit more specific. And then I want to be able to go in with a keyword. But I find that harder to do in illustration than in photography. I would say the first thing is just being able to give me a sense. Because some of these illustrators that I have found that do kids books, you know, children’s books, you go on their site, and they’ll have a whole different, a little bit more sophisticated style which actually works better than the true storybook.

What’s the advantage of using stock illustration versus assignment illustration?

Well, I think it’s probably quick, if it’s a time issue, as well as maybe a budget? But the reality is, with somebody like United, the type of usage we buy, and we’re being very specific, it’s almost better to commission original. And we work in such an interesting way… I think illustrators like working with us because we’re not in the traditional commercial approach where we give them a concept or a concept line and let them just create. And then really try to stay true to what their style is, and not tell them, “Could you change that? Could you do this? Can you make that blue? Can you...” you know. So, that’s what I think has been really great in the reputation of the United campaign.

Do you see a difference between what is considered commercial illustration and editorial illustrators?

Let’s see, yeah… I’m not sure I would say that they’re similar, but I think editorial, we will use, like, “New Yorker” covers. I’ve found illustrators that we’ve worked with for United based on what they’ve done in editorial. So commercial, I tend to think if they’re more like drawing a beverage or a can… it just seems more packaged goods or really “cartoony” is what I tend to think of as commercial.

Do you hire freelance designers?

We do. We do hire designers to help out on projects.

And what type of accounts do you hire photographers on?

Well, here, we work on Best Buy, Applied Materials, Sunset Marquee, which is a hotel, Chambers Hotel... so those we do photography. For the most part United’s illustration.

And do you find photographers anywhere in the country, in the world, or you tend to find photographers locally?

We tend to like to find the best illustrator or the best photographer for the project, so it doesn’t matter where they come from. Because that’s part of our job, is to sell it to a client, why we have to go with this person. So, I’m sure it would disappoint Minneapolis to know we don’t just look at Minneapolis photographers, we look for the right person for the project, and that’s a big philosophy of our creative director of teams.

And what are some of the ways you look for photographers?

Photographers? Same things. I will look through my promo files. I will go through annuals. I will go through rep websites. I think that’s a big thing. I love when reps market to me because then I have one place that I can go for a bunch of quick click-through to see if it’s the right look and feel and then I will call in books.

Do you like email promotions?

I do like email promotions. I will always because I feel, as an art buyer, my role is to look at any promos that come through. So I will always look at that first image that comes through an email. It doesn’t necessarily mean I’m going to click through, because… if that image is really grabbing, whether it’s artistically photographed, is something interesting, whether it’s targeted directly to me. I tend not to care if it’s… I don’t want to see like an airplane or a hotel image. I just want to see some beautiful photography. Then I will keep it. I’ve got a file on my computer that I call “Cool Photography”… I’ll just keep it there. And I do the same thing with my promos... if it’s a really great promo, I will keep that based on different categories. If I need to find a lifestyle portrait shooter, I’ll just go and grab that. And I’ll quickly go through and go, “Oh, yeah, that’s good. I’ll use that.” Not so much for the image but more to trigger my mind. And then I’ll go on the website or find out where they’re at.

And when you’re looking at the website, is there any way in particular that you think is helpful – the way it’s organized or how you tend to search through a photographer’s website?

I think if they shoot a lot of different things, that they have it kind of broken out in categories, whether it’s travel, portraits, kids, food, as opposed to one big blend of things. I don’t want to go through a hundred pictures, and I’m like, “I don’t want all this food.” I want to be able to just nix the food part if I don’t need food. So, that’s one thing. I would say something that’s fast, again... back at my Fallon days, we used to have to call in books and now the beauty of the Internet and websites, you can do it really quick to see if it’s just the right look and feel from those couple pictures. I think it’s important that those couple pictures that may come through are pretty strong because that’s what I will look at. And I usually have pretty good sense when I just look at it. Then there are other times where it’s like strips that keep moving, drive me crazy. And then if I can’t…

Try to catch them, stop them, move them.

Yeah, like I can’t move them back. I mean, it looks nice, but it’s flying… it’s flying by, I’m trying to get the image up here, and then music… I don’t know. The music, it sounds cool, but it drives me crazy, too. I can never figure it. Because if I have like eight zillion windows open which is part of my problem, I’ll have like three different musics going on. I’m like, “I don’t even know which website that is coming from.” So, that drives me a little crazy.

And at what point do you call in the portfolio?

When I’ve narrowed it down to probably… I’ll start with doing a big massive search and then narrowing it down to like maybe 10 to 15 that I’ll send to my art director, and then from there, they’d call in the top five.

Mm-hmm. And what do you see in a portfolio that’s different than what you look for on the site?

You know, I’m not even sure. To be honest with you, I feel like photographers update their website more than they do their book. [What the] book does, there’s something still in the process of touching and feeling it, that it becomes real. And sometimes it’s also like you can actually see the quality of prints. So that’s nice… when you go to the client, there’s something nice about presenting a client a book, as opposed to a link. But every client’s different.

Is there anything important in the way the portfolio is presented?

I would say for me I like portfolios that don’t have everything under the sun in their book and so many images. Because if there’s multiple, multiple images, I never …

They lose you.

Yep. But I also like sometimes, to be honest with you, I’m a back…

You start from the back.

Yeah, I’m a back-page magazine person, too. So I also think that’s something to keep in mind because I’ve heard more and more people that do that.

Yeah, I do that, too. Start from the end of the article and work back to the front of the article.

So, I think it’s good for people to keep that in mind, that you might want to make sure you’ve got good images in the back, too.

And how much does the budget play into the decision making about the artist that you’re going to use?

I’ve always worked at places that I would never look at the budget, hopefully, like…

As a deciding factor.

Yeah… Because if there’s somebody we want, like when it was BMW, we wanted to work with somebody, we’d go after them because hopefully for them, for the photographer, it’s a good project to have in their book. I think with the economy today, it’s probably a little bit different. But, we’ll always at least try and see if it’s doable or we can make it work, or have to limit usage… ultimately, what we’re trying to do is just be creative. So, we work with the best person for the project.

Do you find a difference in a smaller agency as far as who gets to make that final decision on who the artist is versus at a larger agency?

There’s probably not as many… I’ve got an art director, then I’ve got the creative... But in reality, it was kind of that same way at Fallon, too. I had my art directors and then their group heads. So, not really, I haven’t really seen that much difference. It’s just that with a smaller agency, there’s a lot more interaction at all levels, and I think the account people are more interested. And there seems to be a lot more interest in who the artist is because we don’t have all the levels and floors and all that separating us.

Do you find that an artist is also chosen based on the relationship somebody has with them, or is it just that you’re in love with this type of art, and you want to work with this artist?

I think it depends on the client. If we’ve done things that have been successful in the past and the client really likes it, then I would say, yes. Otherwise I would say, no, it really comes down to the person that’s right for the job. I used to hear that photographers only wanted to talk to the art directors, thinking that they’re the ones that make the decisions, and I think more and more, art directors don’t, I mean, at least the agencies I’ve worked at, they throw away the promos, or they bring them over to me, and I keep them. So, I think that is changing from what it used to be.

And does it matter to you if the artist has a rep or not? Does it affect how you feel about wanting to work with them or not?

No, I think the advantage of a rep is, like when I said earlier, if I’m doing a quick search, I can just go into some key rep groups that I know have a lot of great photographers, and I can just go through there. But in terms of would I work with somebody who doesn’t have a rep? Absolutely.

How important is the experience for photographers, their production experience? Does that play a role in your decision-making, or do you feel that that can be done by somebody else, so it doesn’t matter now?

… how I like go about just the estimating process, when we get, say we narrow it down to three or four people – actually probably a couple because I don’t like to waste people’s time – we have initial the call, where we actually will talk to the photographer and get a sense of how they would approach it. And from there, you can usually tell if they’ve had a lot of production experience or not. But I feel like if you could give them a good producer, I think a really good producer on their end is important. Even if they’ve had a lot of experience, I still think the producer is key from my perspective because I want to know that we’re going to get… that they understand how an agency works or what kind things that we require and expect of a shoot.

And seeing how they put the budget together, does that also give you a good idea as to how knowledgeable they are about trying to do a budget?

Yeah. Sometimes the estimates will come back, and it seems like it’s very much like, “Oh, I’ve got to be the cheapest, or the bottom line.” But when you look at it, you’re like, “Well, where’s…there’s no…really, you’re going to find someone who’s going to do hair for $500?” Those are the ones, you think, either they don’t know what they’re doing…

They don’t have experience.

…or they’re just trying to get the job. And I would rather – and again this has been kind of a philosophy of mine for many years – is that I’d rather have it done right because a lot of my clients never allowed me to do overages. So, it’d better be right up front, or I’m going to make you keep to that. But ultimately we get hurt by, you know, if I was to really pay, “Okay, really $500?” then my team isn’t satisfied, so ultimately the client suffers.

And do you go out on shoots?

Yes.

You will?

Yep. I, again, have worked at agencies that have always looked at art buyers as no different than a broadcast producer on television.

Being with a job from beginning to end, making sure everything goes right.

Yeah because it’s really hard when you don’t go on the shoot, if things happen, like weather days, or there are pieces missing, or if there’s models, like knowing that all the contract paperwork’s done. So, yeah, we go on shoots.

And do you work on all the projects that happen at the agency here?

Yes. I’m the only art buyer.

And how do you like people to contact you? How do you like artists to reach you? Do you like getting phone calls? Do you prefer just getting mail and emails? What’s your preference?

I think emails are totally acceptable and fine, and again, that’s my job. Actually before you came in, I answered a call because I thought it was someone I knew and it was a photographer who happened to be a local photographer that I’m going to set up a book showing. But I think that’s harder to do because we’re so busy that when you get phone calls, then it’s just one more person you’ve got to call back. I think emails are good because you can do them at any time if you want to respond back. And just because somebody doesn’t respond, doesn’t mean they’re not looking or keeping your work, so you have to remember that some people…

Right. And that’s probably challenging for a lot of artists now. They send you things. You like it. You’re actually holding onto it, and yet they don’t know it.

And they have no clue that you’re holding on to it. I have promos in my promo file that are probably, I don’t know, five... I don’t even know how old, but they’re some of my favorites. So I look at them and... they probably thought, “What? That’s so old and you still have it.” So, yes, that’s the one thing I’m sure it’s frustrating because why doesn’t someone write back, “I like your work?” And sometimes I do, if I like it.

If you can.

Yes, if I can. And if I’m looking for something right then, but I think that’s our job as art buyers, is to know who’s out there.

Good. All right.

You know what, I would say is, a lot of times when we’re doing comps and stuff like that, it drives me crazy when you can’t… everybody’s afraid of it… I don’t know if it’s changed some, but being able to just drag the image off and be able to put it into a comp layout if it’s the photographer. Because sometimes they have it so it’s locked and you can’t grab it. No one’s, I mean, I’ve always worked at places that we’re not stealing your artwork, and so to have a little bit of that trust.

Do you have a problem on Flash sites, too, when you’re trying to send the image to an art director to look at, but you can’t send that specific image?

Yeah. So, it’s like pulling anything… anytime I can’t pull it down, I end up having to do the Apple option and cut and paste the image. But, a lot of times, even art directors want to see it at higher res, to see what it really looks like, and when you do that, you’re kind of shortchanging yourself by not having the image available to be pulled off.

Right. Okay.

Yes, so that’s what drives me crazy.

Good. Okay. Keep that in mind. Thank you very much.