Kat Dalager, Campbell Mithun (Part 2)

Do the art directors forward things to you to look at… that they want you to find out about the artist?

They do. And sometimes, it's not even commercial artists. Sometimes, it's fine artists that they're interested in and it’s someone who gives them inspiration.

And how do you feel about that as a buyer, thinking, okay, now this is a fine artist. I don't know if they've ever done a commercial job.

I love it. In fact, I've shot with a lot of fine artists. I've worked on the production side and kind of hand-held through their production piece. But because what they did was so unique and really, really cool, it was great working with fine artists, too. So, I love that.

When you receive all these different promotions, how are you organizing them?

[Laughs] Again, that's a trick question! If you saw my inbox in my mail, you'd wonder.

How do you find anything in there?

We do have art files that are promo cards that have been filed according to category – that's on a physical mailer level. And then, I also have a file in my inbox, on my Mac, with folders for different promos.

So, there's a big hint here, and I hope everyone hears it. I keep telling everyone this: Use the subject line wisely when you're sending emails, because the way I organize them, if I can sort by subject line, and [if] the subject line has something in it that says “food photography” or “still life” … you've pre-categorized for me.

And it makes it much easier to find later. And it also prompts me to open it sooner, 'cause often, I'll be working on something and it'll say “food” or “still life,” and I'll need that right now. I'm opening it immediately. You can help me prioritize whether I open it.

And from those emails, how often do you go to the website?

Often. If I'm looking for something, I go almost immediately to those websites. But if someone says, “Open me,” I don't know what it is. And frankly, I think it's junk mail. In fact, I've had people [who’ve] said, “well, you never got back to me.” I say, “Well, what did your email say?” It said, “portfolio [or] new portfolio.” I'm like, “do you know how many emails I get that just say ‘new portfolio?’… It looks like just [an email] a blast.” And then I'll get to yours later. And sometimes, later doesn't happen.

So, does that make it easier to save the emails versus bookmarks? Because [with] a bookmark, you may not have labeled in any particular way?

It's harder to do bookmarks, 'cause it's a multi-step process. I have to name what it is, because sometimes the name of the automatic bookmark doesn't match what it is. And it would mean re-categorizing. Sometimes, it's just not so clean. It's a multi-step process to organize those. And if I keep them in my email folder in “Food” or whatever it might be, then I can pull those up.

Sometimes, all I can do is put it into one folder that says “Promos.” And I don't have time to put them into individual folders. I get 30 to 40 email promos a day. And the ones that are over 2 megabytes, they get automatically deleted because it shuts me down.

Right. And what about personal work? Do you like to see personal work on websites?

I do. And what I like to see is an acknowledgment that it's personal work, so it's not confusing the issue: Here's what I do, and this might be what you know me for. But here's the other personal work. It also depends on what level that photographer is. We were talking about new photographers. If it's confusing to me what their personal work is compared to what I would hire them for, it's sending a mixed message.

Is there any work that offends you when you look at somebody's website and you're like, “Oh, I can't believe they put this on here.”

You know, it's really… here's another good story. I won't mention names, but at one point there was someone who wanted to come and show me some work. And yes, we have some beauty accounts. They sent a link to email and they said… they're so-and-so… [they’re] in town and they want to come in and see you.

I said, “well, I'm not sure if I have time. But call me back and I'll check in with you. Send me an email with some times.” Opened up the email promo, and it was, literally, all soft porn. And I'm like, “I'm in a work environment!! I'm at a work environment!!”

And you're thinking, who's looking over my shoulder? Thinking, I'm looking at this right now.

Or even IT. You can look at anyone's computer and see what's going on.

And then they start to wonder what you're looking at.

Exactly. And not only that, but I thought, how, by any stretch of the imagination, did they connect that work to H&R Block, General Mills, Land O'Lakes? You know, not so much. Not so much.

Is there a better way that artists could be marketing themselves to you with their work? Are there other ways that you think they should be trying to… that they're not right now?

There are several things I think people are doing right. And just not everyone's doing it. And they probably don't want to hear it from me – have me tell it to everyone, to share that. But, you know, I've said this before when I've spoken to groups… that “stuff” helps. And it doesn't have to be substantial stuff. But books catch my attention because they're bigger. They're more substantial. They give me a broader range of work.

I just received a cool promo today from a photographer that was an egg timer. It's all tied into a whole promo, so it's not irrelevant. It's not just “here's a gift.” It's “Here's a promo, and here's something that I can open.”

It's like, oh, this is cool, it's like Christmas. But it means something to me. And because our producers tend to be very photographic, it gives me some kind of association. So, I understand it. And not only did I remember that promo when it arrived to me today, but I remembered the other promos that that person had sent, saying these are all very clever 'cause there was a whole series of them.

Right. It meant something.

Yes. It meant something. And so now, I've thought of those promos when I'm opening this one. What better bang for your buck can you get than that?

And have people come in, either reps or photographers, and done a show where all the art directors come in?

We do that a lot here. And I encourage that because, between the other art producer/print producers, that's something that's actually a huge initiative of ours… to really expand who we know. So, it's [trying to go] beyond who are the obvious people, and [getting] into exploration. Art directors love it, too, when there is time. Food usually helps bring people out. I hate to say it... I mean, I feel kind of bad about that, but it makes it more of a party atmosphere… and much more of a kind of a social gathering. Because nobody wants to feel that they're being sold to. You know, sometimes, agents or photographers, they must have been reading some Dale Carnegie or something, because then it comes down to closing the deal. “Do you have any projects I can bid on right now?” You know, it's kind of like…

You don't want them to ask that.

No. It's like asking, “do you have any spare change?”

Just show the work, and if they do [have a job for you] they'll tell you, right?

Exactly. Exactly. So, it's not about sales. It's about relationships. And it goes both ways. It's a relationship where we want to understand you as a photographer and/or the rep. And hopefully, when you're in our space, you understand what we're about, too. And when you took the tour today, you know, what were some of the impressions you had as you came through?

Well, those things are the impressions that photographers have, and do they want to do business with us? You know that… going to multiple agencies today (or probably across the country), you walk in and you know what the vibe is, right off the bat. Okay, is this corporate? Is this stuffy? Am I going to have to mind my P's and Q's? Or is it something where I can be who I am? You can figure that out. And to short cut that… that's gold.

And when you get portfolios in, how long do you tend to keep them?

Too long, probably. And part of that's because, sometimes, projects tend to linger for a long time. And I can't tell you how many times I send the book back, and then the next day, [we] need it back. So, sometimes, they're in here for weeks. Sometimes, they're in here a lot longer than that.

And do the artists know what happened with the project? Do you get back to people who thought that they were up for something and… do you tell them?

I do my very best to try and call everybody back and let them know. And say, sometimes, exactly, where it went. Because, again, it's not about competition as much as it is about sustaining industry. I'll never do a nuisance bid. There's no point in doing that. When we bid, we say, okay, here's how much money we have. If we don't know, we may ask you… but let's cut to the chase and let's just do business instead of playing a dance…

How much do you think that that bidding process plays into your decision about wanting to work with that person?

It does actually play a factor. And some of that…

…their behavior during that process…

Yes. Exactly. And we've been around for a long time. We know what the hot buttons are. We know what's touchy. But we're very straight shooters, so we'll tell you right up front. So, if there's something where we're being straight with you, but we don't have that sense you're being straight with us, that does kind of cloud that whole process and it makes me wonder, what's going to happen afterwards.

Very, very often, if it's not going well at that negotiation stage, after a shoot, we kick ourselves and say, now we know why the warning flags went off. We didn't listen to it. Or maybe it was because an art director insisted they wanted to shoot with that person. And that reminds us why it's not always such a pleasant process.

Do the art directors here like getting promotional pieces?

Some do. Some don't. Again, because there's such an influx of them, they often just refer a lot of people to us because we can be gatekeepers. And it saves their time.

What do you think they're looking at to discover who's out there, to be up on photographers? What kind of materials do they look at to get inspiration?

I think art directors look a lot at award show books. And different ones. I look at all the award show books. I look at the publications – and I like that, as well. But I think [for] art directors, that's [probably] the first source they go to, rather than the second source. And art producers maybe have a… more even blend of that. Because, sometimes, I'd have to say, for the art director, it's a matter of a feather in their cap, who they're working with. Is it a big name player?

Right. They can brag to other people: “Look at my book.” It’s in their portfolio. They can show other people that they worked with somebody.

Yep. Exactly. 'Cause frankly, if a photographer can make them look good, that increases their chances of getting a better job or a better title. And when they move from agency to agency, saying that they shot with so-and-so… it won't hurt them.

Right. Okay. So, let's talk about email promotion. How do you think an artist should look at doing their email promotion?

Well, what is amazing to me, Juliette, is that photographers don't think a year ahead in their plan. They should be doing a marketing plan. They shouldn't just be thinking…

Of some type…

Yes, exactly. They shouldn't just be thinking, “Hmm, today, I think I'd like to do red. I'm going to make everything red and send that out.”

And I'm going to send out a card today.

And then think that I'm going to remember you for what you're doing. So, hopefully, they've planned out a year in advance with all their promotions and those cross-promotions, so that every point of contact they have with me is reminding me of them, whatever their brand is.

It ties together with their brand.

I mean, it's basic advertising. That's what advertisers do. That's what Coca-Cola does. That's what all the big brands do. And so, really, photographers are no different in that regard.

Right. So, whether they're doing a printed piece or an email piece, having something about it tie-in with each other.

Exactly. Exactly. Again, what you're just doing is reinforcing that message with me. And that's what it's all about. Because there's no way to keep current with everything. You can't expect someone to have something, keep it for two years and think, “oh yeah, that's what they do.” We know better than that. We know that they've evolved. But have a plan during the course of the year in what you want – the message you want to say. Because I'm hoping you haven't changed five times in that year. Because then, how do I know why I’d call you in on something?

How many images do you want them to show on their email piece?

Well, as long as it's a small file size, it could be just about anything. But don't send me large files. I feel so bad, because sometimes, people send me literally, you know, 10, 15-megabyte files.

Why!!!?

I know! Because they don't know how to compress, or whatever. And unfortunately, all they're doing is saying that they don't know how to do business.

Right. That's a bad sign.

Bad sign.

You mentioned trying to find an artist who didn't have a website. Has that happened to you, besides that one time, where you tried to find somebody and there was no site?

This was the first time that I haven't found anything from a photographer. And I'm sure it's because they are doing great now. They have a lot of word-of-mouth clients and all their business is consistent clients they've had forever. But now, if those clients go away – and they do, I mean, people age out – or they disappear with this economy, they'll have zero presence out there.

I literally had to look him up on like, DEX, to find him. And that was based purely on a client's request. But of course, what's going through my mind is “Geez, is this someone I want to do business with?” 'Cause if they're not savvy as to technology or the need to do that … and I knew who they were … I just was feeling a little uncomfortable with that.

It's odd.

It seemed out of place.

And that idea that we were talking about… how can you say print is dead? It's like, this is the industry you work in. So, as an artist, you have to believe in print promotion for yourself as well.

And it's not just one point of contact. 'Cause if you think that interactive is going to be the only point of contact, well you're sadly mistaken. Advertisers don't do that. They're sending out their message. If photographers could do TV spots… maybe they should.

If you're going to do one thing, do TV!

But how do you get the message out in multiple points of contact? Again, consistently through some time.

And also, because they're trying to attract you as a buyer, which might be a different way of looking than the art director who wants their information given to them in a different way. So, the different points of contact can attract the different people on the team in a different way.

Yep. And it's not even a distinction between function. It's really just individuals. What do people like? Some people will say, “Oh, I hate emails. Don't send emails.” Well, you can't say that generally overall. Other people will say, “oh, I hate mail promos. Don't send them.” And then, base your decisions on mail promos by one person who said that. You just have to sometimes take that risk and do multiple points of contact.

And then, some will work, some won't. But you had asked an earlier question, is it something where I won't pick someone because of that? No. Because, if they sent me an email and I don't want it, I delete it. It's a mailer, I don't want it, I throw it away. I'm not thinking negatively of you for promoting yourself.

Right. And what about the promo piece itself? Is there a physical style of a printed piece that you like or don't like?

To me, there's usually a couple of different types of pieces. One is just a reminder. Maybe it's just a postcard and it says, “Hey, here's a latest image.” Send it out there. Contact information. You know, my URL is here, and my phone number and who I am, and where I am. That's fine. And then there might be other pieces. People are sending a lot of books. And I love those because they're something I hang onto and can refer back to. And that gives me a broader range of work. But you can't just do one or the other. You really need to do both, too.

Right. And on a portfolio, does it matter to you if it's a plastic sleeve or not? That question seems to have come up a lot.

I can't stand plastic sleeves. And here's the funniest thing about that: Everyone I know cannot stand plastic sleeves. But for some reason, in the fashion industry – which is supposed to be the most trend-forward industry – they default to plastic sleeves. Half the time, I'll take the image and I'll pull it out of the plastic sleeve, because it looks crappy behind that plastic sleeve. Then you can actually see what the image looks like. But how sad that you have to do that.

Do you also look at how clean the portfolio is? Does that have any impact on you, about how you think the artist might be?

That's a great question, too, because what I've told many photographers is, it's about all senses when you're looking at a book. And a lot of it's subliminal. Let's say you're a photographer who does some warm, fuzzy, you know, children's photography. And I touch the book and it's cold acrylic or metal. Maybe it looks really cool, so my first [sense] is sight.

But when I touch it, I'm cold. It's sterile. Then I open up the pages and the pages are shiny and glossy and they smell like vinyl. What message are you telling me through all those things? Because [through] all those senses, I'm creating a subliminal picture of what you are and how you see things. So, to me, that package has to match consistently.

Start with your content, what are your great images? And from there build the appearance, in all those senses, of what will carry through on what you're trying to convey. I've had food photographers send a portfolio. Opened up the FedEx box [and I smell] smoke. They obviously were smoking….

What?? No!!

Yes!! You know how cigarette smoke stays in your purse after a while? When you come home from the bar, you're like… well, it used to be [like this] when everyone was smoking… the next day, you'd unzip your purse, it'd be like, whoa. Smells like smoke.

That's what happened with this FedEx box. So, whoa, smoke came out. I was looking at a food book and the pages smell like smoke.

Hmm. So, maybe they should do scratch and sniff.

Yeah, really. Exactly. Charcoal would have been better.

Right. Would have been more appropriate.

So, yeah, it's all those subliminal things. And again, that's no different than marketing of any other kind. So, photographers should think like big advertisers do.

Exactly. They have to look at themselves as a brand, as a product, and how are they selling themselves as a product?

Exactly. You don't see Coca-Cola switching their branding every day. They have a brand, first of all. That's a start. That's a good start.

All right. Thank you.