Kat Dalager, Campbell Mithun (Part 1)

Start by telling us a little bit about your background as an art buyer.

It's a long and varied and probably very sundry background.

That's good.

I started about, oh, 35 years ago… as a child.

You [started] art buying as a child?

I was exposed to the art world very young. So, I basically grew up in that world. As an art buyer, my background started when I was in art school and then, also, as an artist representative. So, I worked on the other side of the industry. I was also a photo studio manager, so I understood that part of the business as well. Then I actually started here at Campbell Mithun 20 years ago or so…

Were you the first art buyer?

No. I was actually not one of the first art buyers. But Campbell Mithun was one of the first agencies to even have art buyers of any kind. And the distinction would be [that] it was really art buying not art producing as it is now. So, 20 years ago I was here and I left them to start art production at Carmichael Lynch in Minneapolis and went on to the Martin Agency to Target, Best Buy… and now I'm back.

So, you know everybody in town?

Pretty much, yeah.

And what do you think makes a good art buyer?

I think what really, really helps is a combination of that left brain-right brain thinking. You need to understand the creative and the creative perspective. What makes good art… and at the same time you need to know how to execute it and how to achieve it. So, it's that balance of knowing numbers, paperwork… and then, at the same time, understanding the artist’s vision. Both on the creative side at the agency, and then the artist’s side… whether it's a photographer, illustrator, typographer.

And now you're at the largest creative agency in Minneapolis and there's just one buyer, whereas a lot of the other agencies have multiple. How did that come about?

It's actually interesting. I'm the only art producer and I also manage the print production department. But our print producers are also art producers. So, we have a lot of blended roles here. It started with the philosophy that art is art, whether it’s printed art or whether it is sourcing visual art. And it has been that way for quite some time.

The distinction has been… [since] I’ve been here, we've been changing it up a little bit in how we do that… and being more resourceful [than] in the past. And also understanding that vision, marrying it a little bit differently than had been done in the past.

Are the art directors here involved in searching for talent as well?

They can be. And I think it varies by individual more than anything else and that's going to be a common theme. It really depends on the individuals we're talking about, the art producer as well as the art director and sometimes the creative directors.

How much direction do you usually get when you're about to look for a photographer or illustrator?

It varies. Sometimes I'll have a layout in hand. Sometimes it's just going to be a theory. I can work with very little information because I love sourcing. It's actually one of the fun things for me. Other art producers might prefer having more of a “who are your top three people,” and then at least get a better sense of where to go from there. But I like having that match… playing that matchmaker in many ways.

How many days will you usually spend trying to find talent to even present?

Well, it could be up to five days. Sometimes we don't have that luxury. Sometimes it's only a matter of 24 hours. It's nice because having been out there… there are so many resources to use right now – at your fingertips. Go online. It's much easier than flipping through the printed source books from many years ago. And also we get the emails. We get the promo cards in addition to the source books. And so we have… it's kind of like a sensory overload sometimes.

Yeah. So, when you're looking through everything, how many links do you feel are appropriate to even forward on to the art director to look at?

Some are more specific. So, if you have a job where it's really a unique set of skills, then there are really only a handful that can be forwarded on. For example, recently we were looking for people to shoot animals, but in a very kind of cartoon way… but photography. So, there aren't as many people who do that compared to someone who does beautiful tabletop food.

So, if it's beautiful tabletop food, that parameter might be location, for example. Where's the creative going to be? Where is the client going to be? How much money is there in the budget? So, it could be as few as a handful: three, four, five to maybe a dozen, at least, in that preliminary search. It's different than it used to be.

What did it used to be?

It used to be, you could easily call-in, for a big shoot, 40 or 50 portfolios… physical portfolios. And then route those around; send them back; call them back a couple of weeks later; send them back. So, now it's so much easier with everything online.

How many portfolios would you call in now?

Like… maybe six.

And those six are in the final…?

Exactly. They've made the final cut.

And when you're talking to the art directors about the options, are you also showing them printed pieces? Or are you just showing them the websites?

It's a combination. And again, it depends on what are the best pieces that would indicate how that artist could fulfill that vision. Sometimes what's on their website just isn't enough. And also, there is something about having a physical book that you can pass around from person to person. You can control the experience of what they're looking at that way.

Is that what you show the client? The actual physical book?

Exactly. Yes. And we also often show them a deck, giving representation of that work as well… again, because we can control that experience. Sometimes photographers have way too much to go through on their website and the client, if you give them just the link, they might go on the wrong path and be unsold.

Now, don't look at that...

Yeah don't look at that part... So, it's a combination, often, of decks and then the physical portfolio.

How do you look at a photographer's or illustrator's website? What are you looking for in their site?

I'm looking for a lot of consistency in those pieces. Usually, a lot of our producers have photographic-type memories. So, if they've seen something there before, they usually can remember it. Is there some fresh work that's been on there? Is it a consistent vision? Does it match the calibre of production that I'm looking for? And if you see [that] everything they're doing looks very, very editorial, the biggest question I have is, “Can you produce a shoot?” Because we need to, not only replicate something, but it has to be done on-time and on-budget, without any issues.

And how important is that experience of the photographer to you?

It's very important unless I have something that really requires more art, and then I can help craft that because as an art producer, I can hold hands in that way and give people some ideas on how to do some of that production piece. It's easier…

Do you have any preference for working with photographers who are established and experienced versus working with brand new photographers?

I love working with new photographers but I think there is a default safety that often people go to because they’re of the known quantity and no issues and no questions. It depends on the comfort level of the client, the art director, and then, also, just the needs of that shoot.

Is there any advantage or disadvantage to geography? Do local photographers have any better chance of getting a job here or actually less of a chance because they're so accessible?

It all depends on the project. I don't see location as the primary [factor]. We're fortunate because we have a lot of large national accounts where location isn't so much the issue, as is what they do and how they do it, and how unique that is.

Although, for example with General Mills, a lot of our creatives are based in New York. So, the convenience of having a New York shoot. And also that kind of city-centric, geocentric view that only good photographers are in New York... that's something we're dealing with as well.

When you call in the book, what are you looking [for] in the physical portfolio? What's important for you to see in that?

I want to see the consistency and vision throughout. I want to know how the artist sees. If you throw in a bunch of images and I can't see where you're coming from, or if I don't see that there's some consistency in how you see that, then I question whether you can focus and do my shoot the way I want to.

For example, if I'm hiring you for a particular image that's in your portfolio and I see one of those types of images in your book and I don't see it replicated anywhere else, I would question whether you can do it for me as well. Is this just lucky?

On-time and on-budget…

Yeah. Exactly. Are you lucky and gee you know all this...

Yeah. Took you three weeks to get it but no problem.

Exactly… three weeks to get it and you've only done it once. Compared to… do I see a lot of that in your book. And we're lucky because we're kind of at the top of what I'm calling a food pyramid. And because we're a national agency, we can be very, very specific about the work that we're looking at. So, we will find people who do red tomatoes. Okay, I can bring in 10 portfolios and they all have red tomatoes as their feature.

You need someone who does green tomatoes? I can call in 10 more books and they feature green tomatoes and that's because we have national accounts and, again, we’re a national agency. But sometimes if you're at that local agency level, it can be a little bit broader. But the whole problem there is what's going to get you into the door and then get you a job in some of those circumstances.

Is it about trying to convince the art director that this person could do it, or is it about convincing the client?

It's both. Art director first because they're the gatekeeper in that regard. It's either the art director… at larger agencies, it's the art producer as that gatekeeper. And you want to be able to get past that first gate in order to play with the rest. And then it goes to the client and you have to convince them as well.

For example, we had a recent shoot where we had multiple photographers – all equally competent, a little bit different vision. And our first choice, in one case, had a certain look that didn't have the pieces that would have convinced the client that they could have done the job. I know that they could have [done the job], but it was too much of a hard sell to get to the client to agree to that. So, we ended up with a different recommendation. Great, great shooter but it was not difficult to sell that through because it was all there. Again they had 10 images like this, instead of one.

Right. So, the way somebody sells themselves nationally is different than they might sell themselves locally.

Absolutely. And it depends not just locally, but it depends on the size of the company. Is it an in-house company? Is it an external agency? Is it design? Is it an ad agency? What level of clients are they working for? What types of budgets?

Unfortunately, there's a lot of homework that goes into that. So that you're not sending me cars because I have no car accounts. I have nothing that's gas and oil. And you're then making sure that you're sending me something that still branches out in what you do, to convince me that you have enough breadth to be able to do something for me, and maybe some of my other accounts.

And if somebody is sending you images that really do relate exactly to what you're working on, how often do you want them to be sending you new images to look at?

No more than one a month or once every two months.

Have you ever had [a situation] where somebody was sending to you so often that it actually hurt their chances of getting called in?

I don't think it hurts their chances. But what it does is it hurts their chances of me looking at them. For example, if they send me a promo once a week, that tends to clog up my email box faster. So I have a tendency to do “select” and “delete” … because I know another one's coming.

Right. You've got it covered.

Exactly.

Are you seeing any trends in photography… in terms of lighting…or things that you’re asked to try to find?

You know that's interesting… I think if you had asked this question even two years ago, it would have been different. But now, we've kind of really gone more toward that reality of images, more that sincerity of images. And I think a lot of that is a result of the financial situation and economic situation. There is a tendency in tough times, whether it's after the 2001 hard economic times, people tend to default to reality, less than surreality.

And how much input are the clients giving about that type of decision?

They are, definitely, and that comes up at the concepting stage. And we want it to be very real… and that comes up in light and airy. You know, [those are] some of the tendencies we've seen… whether it's tabletop food versus location photography.

And are you starting to notice that in portfolios as well?

No. I haven't really noticed a trend in that regard. It seems like there is just so much of a hodgepodge of everything out there. But what I have noticed is there's less of that real, stylized, high-key look. So, maybe in a way, it's toned down a little bit. That was a trend that was out there. But it isn't as prevalent now as it was just a couple of years ago.

How many people are involved in the decision-making?

[Laughs] Is that a trick question?

No. I'm just asking how many art directors and clients are typically looking at the choice.

I'd say, conservatively in our world, we have probably no less than six to seven people as part of that decision-making process. And there’s often more than that. And it’s everything from our level… for example, we've got our producers that are doing the initial screening. And then you have an art director; you might have a creative director; you might have an executive creative director, account service, account supervisor. Then you have your client, who's a brand manager, and then often it goes up from there as well.

Do you find that there's a battle between the creative viewpoint choice and the budget viewpoint choice?

No. I don't think so. And we're lucky because money has never been the stumbling block. And I'm not saying we have open-ended money. I'm saying that there's always a way to get what we need within a certain budget as long as we're realistic about what money we have. So, we wouldn't have even, if we knew our money was really, really low… if it's a really great creative project, that's how we position it: "Look, I know… in your book, you're missing this piece. I know you'd be a fabulous match for it. You don't have it in your book now. But man, this would be a win for you. It could be good for us. What do you think about this?"

If you were looking for a recommendation for talent, would you more likely call a rep and ask them, or an artist agent? Or would you call another art buyer?

I'll call another art buyer. Although I do know people who do default to calling reps. And sometimes, what they'll do is, they'll say, “Who do you have that does this?” Well, again, now it's much easier because I can look online for myself. There are times when I have done that – if it's some established group and I trust their sense of level and calibre, and maybe even their style as a repping firm. I will do that as well.

Or maybe if someone isn't available – the one person I've asked for isn't available – then I can ask “who else do you have that could do that?” But if it's about finding out how someone works – which is equally important – I'll call other art buyers or art producers. Or there are some forums out there, too. There's an art producer's forum.

Do you go on websites to get [your] information that way? Do you go on blogs? Do you look at different industry sites?

Wherever I can. And then, again, you find out not only about the work, but how that person shoots. And I love seeing how people shoot, on websites. That's really important to me. And we're finding that so much of our work is really not just about photography. It's about still images, moving images. And so much of what we do is integrated productions where we're shooting TV simultaneous to stills. So, we need someone who has that vision that carries through, not only in the still world, but in the moving world and vice versa.

How much illustration do you buy?

Very little unfortunately. I think… we did much more of that before [I joined the company]. Probably five years ago, there was more of a trend for that… but I haven't seen much.

And what about stock? Do you buy much stock photography?

We do a fair amount. But it's interesting that you're asking that question now because literally, as of this week, both Getty and Corbis – the big ones – have made some huge changes in how they're doing business… probably in response to the economy. And that will probably change the way we purchase stock, too.

In what way?

For example… I think it's Getty that's eliminating a lot of their rights-managed images, their collections. For example, some things are taken completely out of rights-managed, they’re either completely royalty-free or there are fewer images within those collections.

Would you ever buy royalty-free?

Yes. We do sometimes.

Even though that means that your competitor could use that image as well, right?

That's the part that is always trained to our clients. And so, for example, with H&R Block, when we are working with them, instead of doing that, we built a case for why we don't want to use the same image that Viagra was using… So, instead we shot our own photo library.

And from what I'm hearing out there, that is much more of a trend. I'd rather give the photographer the money, frankly – and they get all of the money…

… and it's original work.

And it’s original work. I don't have to worry about conflicts. I get exactly what I want. We do a lot of what I'm calling custom stock, where I'll say, “Look,” (in fact we're doing this today), “I need an image of… I can't find it anywhere in stock... It's kind of an agricultural shot. Can't find it. Can you do this for me?”

I pay you a decent amount. And after that, if you put it in stock, that's fine with me. Because you get a benefit, I can get a benefit. I'm probably not paying as much as a high-end commercial photographer would be, but it's kind of a white label we’re doing and I don't need to.

Right. And what about usage? Has the purchase of usage changed over the years?

Yeah. Within the last year, it certainly has. Usage rights really aren't as big an issue as they have been in the past. Maybe it's because of finances. We're fair. We're not asking for something we don't necessarily need. But it doesn't seem to be as much of a battle point as it had been even 10 years ago.

Kat Dalager has offered so much great insight that we've decided to split the interview into two podcasts. Click here to listen to the second part of my interview with Kat Dalager.