Lori Walker, Butler Shine Stern & Partners

Welcome, Lori, and thanks for talking to us today. You went from representing photographers and now, you're on the other end of it as an art buyer. So, for you, is the job what you imagined it would be?

It's harder than I thought it would be, but it is great. I feel like I'm more a part of the process, which is why I wanted to get into it, as opposed to just the shoot because there's so much that happens before a shoot even begins to be thought of.

You mean, as far as the job, not just trying to put together the shoot?

Right. Exactly. So, there’s concepting involved, the trials and errors, and what's presented to the client, and how things get to where they are when you need to start looking at a photographer’s first shoot. I mean, I think, the whole process is really interesting.

How many different projects, for example, are taking place at one time or in general?

Easily, five, but I'm involved in everything here. I feel like there's always like four to five projects, kind of larger things that are going on that need immediate attention. But, yeah, right now, I get to touch everything because there's only one art buyer here right now.

And then how much of your time is spent fielding calls from artists and reps during the day?

I try and meet with a rep probably once a week, and I get calls… I feel like every time I come back to my desk I have a message from, usually, someone I don’t know. A rep reaching out to me and I always write down the number, but it's rare that I get a chance to call back. Sometimes I do, and sometimes I don’t… it's difficult.

Do they approach you in the same manner that you used to when you were doing it?

Yeah. Pretty much. Yeah, definitely. It’s, you know, this is what we're doing, these are our photographers, and kind of a lighter approach I think is nice rather than a hard sell.

When you first start reviewing, when you first started looking at the promotional material that was being sent to you here, did any bells go off and you thought, “Oh, now that I see what it feels like to get all these, I would have done differently”?

Well, I remember, as a rep, we'd send out promos with those see-through envelopes… in hopes that it would actually be opened. Now, I see why that is so valid because you flip through your mail and, yeah, sometimes I open stuff, sometimes I don’t. Sometimes it sits there and then I get to it. But if I would do anything differently, I think there are so many different kinds of promos. There's just the printed material and then I have gotten a couple of things that have been, you know, unusual. I thought, “Wow, that’s such a cool idea.” And the photographers probably are going to update me with more slides or slide wheels.

So, you keep a viewmaster and you put the new slides to.

Yeah.

So you think that’s a clever promotion that stands out…?

In some ways, because when he gave it to me, I was like, “Wow, this is something that I can definitely pass around to my art directors to keep.” You know, it's like a little toy at my desk, and yeah, I've already had a couple of art directors look at it, and I got it last week.

What type of other marketing materials do you think that artists should be focusing on for themselves that they should make sure that they're sending or that they have or…?

Sending or what they have, I mean, I think that links and electronic promotions are great. But I have to say I've been bombarded more with electronic promos than physical promos recently. I get about 30 emails a day easily. And right now, I've got about a 120 emails that I know are from either reps or photographers that I haven’t had a chance to look at.

And when you opened the website, when they’ve sent you the link and you look at the site, is there anything that’s hitting you now that you realize again, also with websites when you're trying to look through a lot of them… that works or doesn’t work?

Yeah. I think that if something doesn’t load right away, if there isn’t a visual, in some sort of way, I usually don’t have the time to wait for it to load, that’s definitely one thing. And then, an actual presence that the photographer, the artist, is making online is really important, and that can be conveyed in so many ways through design or just kind of the look and feel of a link or a promo.

Mm-hmm. And how are you organizing promotional pieces that are sent to you?

They're in a pile. But I hope to organize them. Certainly, I want to have a group of local photographers and artists that I can go to here in the Bay Area. And then from there, yeah, essentially, I would organize them by style, whether that’s lifestyle, still life, more conceptual work, that kind of thing.

And does the piece itself affect how you feel about the photographer, how complicated the pieces that helps design?

Oh, definitely. Definitely… I could get a promo and be impressed with it and I'll immediately, if I have the time, I'll look online at the photographer’s or the artist’s website. And essentially, if I like what I see, I'll bookmark it immediately. And I've got, you know, probably, 50 individual photographers bookmarked right now. Some that I know, that I've worked with before, or some that I just know that I want to go back, and look. And I'm hoping that my visual memory will still be intact when I need to recall something.

The other thing is I also have reps bookmarked. And same thing, when I get rep promos [if I’ve] never heard of them, I'm like, “Oh, yeah, that rep, I should certainly look into their roster.” I have all the reps bookmarked as well. So, I try and keep that a little bit separate.

Do you have a way to organize your bookmarks?

Right now, it's broken up reps, photographers. But I think what will happen is that as I start collecting, I won't organize them, I won't break up the reps. But I have illustrators also, and I'll start breaking them up by style, the photographers and the illustrators, certainly, I hope to do that, yeah.

And does the agency hire illustration as well?

Yes. Yeah, yeah. We do, a lot.

And have you found in this new role that you're using sourcebooks, at all?

Yeah, I love the little ones because I can throw them in my bag and read them on the bus or take them with me places, just like you would a magazine. So, I really appreciate the smaller ones that are more portable.

Do you have any thoughts about an artist who is in either a magazine or a book or with a rep? Is there any kind of association that affects what you think about that artist or is it just about the artist?

You mean, like if I see them in Spin and they’re… I don’t know…

Or, if you saw them in… depending on how you find the artist.

Oh, okay. I see.

Are you affected by how you find the artist, do you already assume something about them because of the amount they promote or because you see them in every sourcebook? Does that influence you about wanting to work with them or not wanting to work with them?

I think one of the things that influences me… is consistency because sometimes you won't always… What is that saying? Where it takes seven…

Impressions?

Seven impressions. I feel like that’s really true. So, I think that if I see someone in a magazine and then a sourcebook and then a link, etcetera, etcetera, and maybe it’s someone that I've never heard of, yeah, that definitely makes an impression.

Does winning an award affect your opinion of them?

For me, no, but I think that it definitely affects maybe someone else’s opinion, and those people might be my art directors here. So, I do have a lot of respect for the “30 under 30.” I always pay attention to that, I always have, so I’m over 30 now.

Yeah. And when you are representing photographers, you had both established and new up-and-coming photographers. So now, on being on the other side, do you think you're more inclined to pick one versus the other?

That was actually one of the questions that was proposed to me here when they were interviewing me. And I prefer to work with young talent, people that maybe are fresher and their attitude isn’t as jaded. But I've met a lot of well-established photographers that are great to work with, too. So, I think it kind of depends on the campaign and whether or not we feel we could take a chance on someone young, and the client, you know, agrees with us. But I think that, essentially, the style of this agency, I think they would be happy to take a chance on someone young and fresh.

And does a photographer’s ability to produce a job affect your consideration of them?

Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, if we're looking for some heavy production we need to know that the photographer can pull through.

And do you find that the art directors here are knowledgeable about talent, or do they come to you and just say, “Here, this is kind of what I'm looking for,” and then you have to find it?

Yeah. I think every art director has their favorites, people that they’ve worked with in the past, and actually, even illustrators. It's something kind of like this, and then this is kind of a springboard. And that really helps me because when we're talking about something so visual, you know that there's an actual visual representation rather than just a bunch of language around it.

And are there people that you always wanted to work with, that you're able to call in now?

Well, that hasn’t happened yet. Well, we haven’t awarded the job yet, but yeah, we're bidding right now for a photographer that I would love to work with, but then I haven’t had a chance to.

And have you discovered new talent since doing this that you didn’t know about?

Yes. There's definitely lots of new talent out there and I always knew that there were a lot of photographers, that there's even more.

Have you had a chance to talk to other buyers now being on this end to get input from them or ideas from them about people that you should call in?

Yeah.

Does it feel like you're a part of a new club?

It does, actually. I haven’t had the chance to directly bounce ideas off of art buyers, but I know that there are some art buyers that I could certainly call up and be like, “What do you think if we work with so and so?” You know, bouncing off of them, for sure, yes.

And does it make a difference to you if an artist is with a rep or not?

You know, it kind of depends on that first phone call. If I can get hold of a photographer, at least within a couple of hours… if I leave a message and I get a phone call right back, I think that’s the most important thing – that there's immediate response. And if the photographer is able to handle that, great. But, I have to say that busy photographers don’t have time to revise an estimate 10 times. So, in that respect, I think, in a lot of ways it's a lot easier to deal with the rep because that’s what they're there for, to put numbers together and essentially, you know…

Produce the job.

Produce the job, yeah.

Do you think there's a difference between being with a large rep firm versus one rep that’s handling a number of artists?

I think as long as you’ve got a point of contact. I've already worked with Bernstein & Andriulli and they're massive. I'm not supposed to mention anybody?

No, no, you can mention anybody. It's OK. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I have specific people that I can call and I know that I'm taken care of. So…

Are there any reps, without naming names, that you would be hesitant because of the way it feels to work with the rep where there's a talent you would want to work with but you would hesitate because of the rep?

For sure. That’s actually happened a couple of times. I've met a couple of reps, known them by name, and I think, now, like, you know…

And you might hesitate.

Yeah. I mean, there are, certainly, reps that I adore and I've great relationships with, and I, yeah, I'll go to them first.

And what about the artist? If there was an artist you really wanted to work with but they didn’t have an agent and you didn’t think that they were really strong at producing the job, would you try to take that on for them or lead them in the right way?

Yeah, I would because I know enough producers that I could essentially partner-off with the photographer. And if I felt like they were open to that, yeah, definitely.

And what about for an artist, because there are certainly a lot of illustrators who may not be as familiar with how to price themselves for an advertising job.

Yeah.

When you're looking at different bids and clearly one of the artists, who probably doesn’t have an agent, isn’t pricing themselves accordingly, how would you deal with that?

Well, I usually tell someone what our budget is if I know it. And even if I don’t necessarily share it upfront, maybe I'll get a bid in and I'll know that we can go up to “X” amount of dollars. All of the creative know, definitely, because I’m not, you know, everyone needs to make a living.

Right. Right.

So, yeah, I'm not trying to get more…

You’re not trying to get something out of that if they don’t know, you'll guide them to make sure that they…

Yeah, I know. Exactly, especially because I've been on the other side and, you know…

Right. Are there questions that you ask now of agents when you're on the phone because of having been on the other side, that you think about, that you think is probably different than maybe other art buyers? Is there knowledge that you have about things you really need to check on?

Yep. One of the things is just the whole package deal, that definitely goes a long way, and I've been educating my account team on that: Well, if we bundle it all together, we're going to get more and we'll be able to have more negotiating power. So that is definitely something that I've learned.

And is there anything that you would suggest to an agent trying to reach buyers now that you realize this is something they really should be careful of or mindful of to do, or not do?

I think one of the things – and most agents do this – but I've gotten a couple of just phone calls with really long messages, and then no follow through with an email. And I think both are important and I'll usually respond if there's definitely both. It's hard to respond to a voicemail only, because you don’t have something in your inbox reminding you. The other thing is that face-to-face contact is really important, it still is. It's still true.

So, you should be trying to get appointments.

It's really true. It's really true.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then follow up with an email and links to their website.

Yeah.

And how often should somebody be trying to send you an email or a promo piece? What would you consider the right amount?

It kind of depends. If a photographer’s with an agency there are agency promos and then there are individual promos. So, I think agencies do at least one huge thing a year, maybe two. But then I think a photographer, so that they're remembered individually, I think more promos is good.

Right. So, even if they're part of a group, they should be doing their own piece as well.

Yes. Definitely. Definitely.

And do you find that the greatest factor in choosing the artist is based on talent or money or…?

Well, it's always, you know, a little bit of both. But, nowadays, I can essentially say we need to be at this budget, and I haven’t met someone that said “I'm not going to work with you. I'm not going to work with those numbers.” Everyone is very accommodating and they understand how it works.

Do you find that an ad agency like Butler, Shine that there's a difference between working at an agency like this versus the large established agencies?

Well, definitely, here, things are very direct. There's no huge process. We don’t have to contact the mother ship; the mother ship is here.

Any other surprises from being on that side of it to this side?

I love it more than I thought I would. Yeah, that’s I think, that’s the biggest surprise.

Good. Well, thank you very much for your time; I appreciate it.

Yeah. Thanks, Juliette.