Aylin Koker, Cole+Weber

So tell me a little bit about the history of the agency. Is Cole & Weber United… is United a new part of the agency?

Well, United is about basically, WPP, our parent company. So we have a lot of sister companies. It’s a huge network.

Okay. It was originally an independent agency?

Yeah, a while ago. It’s a really old agency, actually. I think it’s been around for like 80 years. So there was someone who’s last name was Cole and someone who’s last name was Weber.

Okay.

So, that’s how the agency was born.

And are you closely affiliated with other agencies, that you would talk to on a regular basis?

No, not really. My day-to-day doesn’t… in fact there are other agencies, sister companies, in the building... And I, in my role I’m not very familiar with what they are working on at any time. So it definitely feels to me like an independent company, but I know we are part of a pretty widespread network all over the world.

And within the agency, how many different creatives or, the art department, how big would you say it is in general?

This agency, pretty small. I mean… off the top of my head, we’re hiring some writers right now, but I think we’re at, like, five creatives.

And does everybody get to see what everybody else is working on? Do you get to see what everybody is looking for as far as photography or illustration?

Yeah I do. I do nearly all the art buying here so I’m usually in the loop on all of the art creation. But there are a lot of other departments here. We do a lot of web developing stuff, so I’m not always in the loop over there, but I try to be.

And for the photography and illustration, I noticed on the site, the site has a lot of illustration on it and a lot of use of typography. Is that generated from one of the creatives here who really likes that, or how did that come about?

You know, I feel like all the creatives here have a lot of, you know, interest in typography. It’s pretty amazing stuff, I feel like it’s really blown up.

Is it done in house or is a lot of that…

No, we source, we source all that.

Okay.

We hire hand-letterers and all kinds of typographers. We’ve bought custom fonts before. So we are really into lettering. But illustration in general is really popular here, for sure. I’ve commissioned a lot more illustration than photography since I’ve been here. But photography is really big too. So we’re definitely trying to pull for some photography as well.

Is there a certain type of illustration that you find is popular here or that you think is a look that you tend to like?

You know… that’s really impossible to say. It really does range quite a bit based on the concept.

And how do you find illustrators?

I do a lot of web research, go to a lot of rep houses, go to a lot of blogs where they post inspiration and click on that, and follow links, and so it’s a lot of web surfing, a lot of creative web surfing. I think that part of what makes me at all good at what I do, perhaps, is being able to be really resourceful on the web.

Are there keywords that you look for in illustration that help guide you? Since it’s so artistic, it’s a little trickier…

You know, it is. Really, it tends to be looking at a lot of work. And one thing that I find really helpful on websites is if you can, kind of roll over a name and see a preview. That’s really helpful. Because then I can know right away without actually loading the portfolio page, if this is going to be in any way the style I’m looking for. That’s really helpful in photography too. It’s like if I know I’m looking for a portrait photographer, it’s really helpful to be able to roll over the names and find that, instead of, you know, loading a portfolio and its products. And making it easy to navigate the site, obviously is super helpful. But I will click on every name if I have to, cause I want to see all the work.

And when you’re looking for a photographer, is there a type of photographer that this agency tends to use a lot?

You know, I think this is kind of a pretty widespread trend right now. But you know things being realistic, it depends on your client, of course. And your product, or whatever. But, I think that realistic documentary style, someone that captures something that feels authentic. What we feel, a lot of the times, is that consumers are very savvy, and they are turned off by ads that are really pushy, and just visually, not at all realistic or connecting with them. So we try to go for people that really understand how to connect with people and that’s more realistic work.

Do you find that you tend to look at the style of their work or who they’ve done it for, before?

I tend to look for the style of their work, but other people definitely are attracted to who they worked with, you know, the client list. I mean, you know, having a client list, it depends on your client too, I mean you definitely want a shooter that’s experienced with a certain type of advertisers, sure. But for me, I’m personally much more interested in the style of the photography and if it’s a good fit based on that.

What do you tend to look at, their printed portfolio, their online portfolio, what do you go through?

Well, initially now, everything’s done online. You know, I do have some printed directories… I have some pretty nice decks that some rep houses send out that I keep in a little library, and I’ll flip through those just to kind of get the wheels turning. But the initial review is me sending out links to the team. I still really like to call in books. If I have the budget to call in books, then I will. Especially if the work is going to be used in magazines or other type of printed material, it’s really…

What does the book show you that you didn’t see on the web?

It shows me how the work looks on paper, which, you know, I think is interesting.

What about printed promos that you get? Do you keep those?

I keep some of them, but that’s another thing with those. I’m just gonna sound really utilitarian, but I’m gonna do it anyways. I mean I was away on production last week and I came back to like a huge stack of them. The quicker and easier they are to look through, the better. I still will look through all of them, but you just want something [where] you see the work. That’s what you get, you know, and…

Are you impressed if it’s a really complicated, beautiful piece? Does it make you stop and go, wow, that’s impressive?

Not really, I mean I…

Not for the cost that’s involved in producing it probably.

No. Honestly, no. It’s not worth it. I’d say even a postcard or a small booklet… the quicker I can look at it, the better.

Do you think it’s better that they put personal work on there or a piece that really shows how you could hire them?

Both angles are extremely valuable. Probably, whatever the artist thinks is a stronger case for them but probably personal work is going to be a little bit more attention-getting. But you would definitely need some ad work to back it up, pretty quickly. So both are really important, but I think personal work is really good to show because it really gets across the artist’s vision just really cleanly and more directly. But ad work is also really important because that’s what I end up producing.

And if you’ve looked at a number of different websites, and then you want to keep track of those websites, what do you do to know where those sites are later, to go back to?

Well, I keep some bookmarks, I keep a list in a Word document. If I’m really, really liking someone’s work, I’ll just remember it for awhile. So it’s definitely hard to stay organized.

And once you like somebody’s work, do you start a dialogue with them? Do you email them, or only if there’s really a project that’s in-hand?

Typically just if there’s a project in-hand.

And then once you do that, do you need to meet them, or would you assign a project if you haven’t met the photographer?

Absolutely. You know, we work with a lot of people that aren’t in town. So definitely. We like to have a phone conversation… but it doesn’t have to be a meeting.

Do you find that you hire more often out of town, or in town?

Well, it depends on the client. If it’s a local client, we may want to try to work more locally, but really that’s just a style question. I mean, I like to be able to look anywhere for the right person, so I’d say it’s probably even.

And for a photographer, do you feel more comfortable working through an agent or a rep?

That’s an interesting question. It’s nice, I have to say, to be able to separate talking about money with someone, and separate that completely from talking about creative. There is something nice about that. But it’s not a deal breaker by any stretch.

Have you found that the budgets have changed at all in the last couple years?

Yes, but that probably is due to also me working on different clients now than I have in the past, so… But yeah, I’ve seen some budget decreases.

Are decisions made sometimes, from the client, based on budget? Does that ever drive who you end up using?

You know, sort of. I mean it’s always going to… if there’s a budget up front, then I may look at certain shooters because of that. But, I feel like I can always find a compromise somewhere. Not sacrifice picking based on style. I mean, I hope to get a list of shooters within budget to choose from, still. And make a recommend to the client, still. And sometimes we’ll have a shooter that we really like and I will tell them what the budget is and if they meet it, we can make it work.

Do the art directors and creatives here really push for certain people that they want to work with?

Definitely. At Cole & Weber in particular, I feel like the creatives here are very savvy and very tuned in to what’s going on in the art world and they’re definitely in the loop. And like to stay on the ball with their own picks as well.

Do the awards affect them at all? Do they feel more passionate about certain artists because they won awards, or not?

You know, an impressive list of awards is impressive, but I think that finding what’s right for the campaign is gonna trump any other basis for decision making.

And how do you feel social media affects who gets selected? Have you ever found that you hired somebody because you heard about them through social media, or that you got in contact with them in that way?

No. Maybe… I guess certain types of blogs, especially for typography, I feel like blogs are really cued in to what’s going on. But Facebook or Twitter or anything, no.

What about art shows? Does that have any effect, if somebody’s part of an art show. Do you ever find people that way?

Commercial artists, not really… It would be very rare.

And as far as their presentation when they come in to see you, has anybody come in to show you their work on an iPad yet?

Yes, I was actually at Le Book last week for their tradeshow, art trade show, and yeah, there’s was lots of iPads going around. So it’s interesting.

What did you think? What did you think of looking at the work that way?

I think it’s totally great. I mean I think it’s fine. It’s easy to scroll through and it’s good.

Is there anything when you’re looking at an artist’s website that you find particularly helpful as far as looking at the work and being able to get through whether or not this is somebody that you’d want to hire?

Well, like I said, I mean, not really. I mean categories are great, but everyone has their own definitions for what goes in a category. So if they have a website, and there’s images up there, I’ll find a way to figure out if it’s a good fit.

Uh-huh. And do you try to find the image that’s exactly what you’re looking for, or are you looking for a style and then you… How literal do you think that it’s gotten?

Well, it’s not that literal for me but I do need a cue that it’s going to translate to what we’re trying to do. And that cue is kind of a mysterious thing, but it’s just, that’s part of the job is to…yeah, to answer your question, is no, I don’t feel like I try to be extremely literal. And you know, we do have comps, but we’re not looking to produce the comps, we’re looking to collaborate with the artist and plus that work.

Do agents come in and have breakfast meetings here sometimes? Where everybody comes in to look at books?

Yes.

Do you think that those are effective?

I do think that those can be effective. But it has to be a good time for the agency to do that. And it has to be both a good time schedule-wise, but also just kind of the energy of the agency and what the agency’s really thinking about and looking for, you know. So I wouldn’t have everyone come in anytime. I can’t carve out time from everyone’s schedule for something that is totally a different gear, even if it’s good work.

Right.

A different gear from kind of what everyone’s working on.

And then what if they show up and then nobody, everybody’s busy on something and they can’t go, right?

Well that happens, that happens and at this point, it’s happened to me enough times where I really don’t feel that bad about it anymore. It’s like there’s nothing I can do, you know, if people are not in that mindset… they’re working on other stuff and they just can’t make it. It is what it is. So, no one should take that personally.

Do you look at emails that come to you?

I do, but that is like winning the lottery. I get a lot of them. And I get maybe 15 and look at maybe one or two if I’m not that busy that day. But you know, lotteries, promo cards, it is like the lottery, but I occasionally do win, so…

Right.

It’s tough to say it’s a waste of time, because, but it’s just I’m overwhelmed…

You have to get through eventually, some way, one way or the other…

Right. That is absolutely true. Yeah.

How many different photographers do you use in a month, or in a period of time that you can…

Not even one a month… a couple times a year. Obviously if there were more opportunities for me to buy art, I would love it, but right now, just with the pace, between photography and illustration and the other types of work we do here, it’s not happening all the time.

Do you find that your tendency is to work with somebody that you’ve already worked with, or to find somebody new, since you don’t have that many opportunities?

My tendency is to want to find someone new, just because I enjoy looking at work, and it’s fun. And I try to find the different nuance in every shooter, with every project. But there are some projects where you know someone, you trust them, you’ve worked with them, and you just know what you’re gonna get and…

It’s gonna go easy.

Yeah, you just feel like that’s how you want to handle it.

Are there other things that help you have more confidence in choosing an artist? Is it, if they’re part of an association, or if they’re repped. Are there things about them that you look at, and if you see these things, that you feel more comfortable?

Some ad work background, of course, some…

Do you ever call the person that they worked with before to see how the project went?

No, no. Not unless it’s a friend in the city that I know, because I know a few other art buyers who I might ask, but really also it’s about the phone conversation. Is this person really excited to work on this? Is this something they’re interested in? If they seem really interested and actually excited about the project, you know they’ll bring a lot of energy to it. A lot of ideas.

So enthusiasm helps.

Definitely. And also, getting all of the cost and ugly stuff out of the way, up front. So that way, you can just focus on the work for the rest of the time and…

Does that affect who you might hire? The process, the bidding process that you go through with them?

It does, if the styles are competitive and they’re both interesting and would add to the project, then obviously I would want someone, whether it’s their producer or it’s their rep or whoever, that has a really good estimating process and gets all of that, all of those loose ends done up front. So, cause when I present an estimate to our clients, I don’t want to have to have any problems for our clients later.

So sometimes, even the person who has a higher estimate might actually be in a better position because they understand how to estimate it, and therefore…

Definitely.

…they gave you more confidence in hiring them.

Definitely. A too low bid tends to be a red flag as well. Either that they don’t know how much work is involved or something…

That they’re inexperienced.

… some misunderstanding. Because when you’re three-quarters down the line on a project and you’ve underestimated, you, the artist, will not be having a good time anymore. You’ll feel like… no one wants to feel like they are underpaid, later down the line…

Do you do some of the producing from the agency, or is it entirely up to the artist to do?

At what point?

For the, on a project, with photography, let’s say. Do you find that you’re taking on the role of helping to produce the job from inside the agency, or…

I always want to be as helpful as possible, to make it as smooth as possible for everyone involved. If they have it totally under control and I can just sit around on-set and whatever, like that’s fine, but at any time I would do anything to help.

And what about usage fees? Have you seen any changes in the way usage fees are… what people are asking for?

Maybe they’ve come down a little bit with the new economy. I end up buying a lot more usage here because our campaigns tend to be very multimedia, so they’re not quite as heinous as I remember them being. But I’m also asking for them a lot more, so maybe I’m just getting more experience with them.

And with the illustration, sometimes it’s actually packaging that you end up using illustration on. Is that a fairly complicated usage buy?

Packaging, I haven’t actually done a ton of packaging. But for the times we have considered packaging, I am looking at a buy-out in those situations. So, just kind of take care of it that way.

You don’t have to go back and revisit it.

Yeah.

It's done, we bought it up. Okay, all right. Great. Well, thank you very much for the information. I appreciate it.

No problem.